Madame Pelicot 5

24/09/2024 Juliette Campion report from the courthouse at Avignon

Juliette Campion @JulietteCampion

9am • 90 tweets reporting from the Avignon courthouse

translated by software from French to English

poor translation I’ll pick through it and improve it anon

Hi all! Back at the rape trial #Mazan which entered its 4th week on Monday, at the Avignon judicial court. This afternoon, we will follow the interrogations of two defendants: Joan K., 27 years old and Hugues M., 39 years old. LT to follow for

Expert France

Joan K. appears in custody. He approaches the microphone, standing in the box. Two other defendants are sitting next to him.

The president recalls that he is being prosecuted for having gone twice to the home of the #Pelicot couple: on the night of November 2 to 3, 2019, and on July 18, 2020, for "acts of sexual penetration by violence, threat or coercion, on the person of Gisèle Pelicot".

During his first hearing, Joan K. first assured that Gisèle Pelicot had spoken to him. Before finally admitting that she was unconscious.

"I said that I recognized the facts, but not the intention," Joan K. said in his box. "We are talking about rape, sir: there is materiality, and there is the intentional aspect. You say that there is no intention?" the president asked him. "No," the man replies.

Dominique #Pelicot told him that his wife "liked threesomes, blacks and young people". He told him "that she liked to be caught up in her sleep and that many men had already done so".

The attorney general announced that she would like to broadcast "a certain number of videos" concerning Joan K. and gave the floor to the civil party, who wanted to express themselves on the publicity of the proceedings.

"I think I have been very clear," says the president, Roger Arata, firmly. "As part of the police measures of the hearing, I indicated that the videos would be screened if this dissemination was necessary to reveal the truth," he continues. #Mazan

He added: "The courtroom will be evacuated and the connection with the annex room will be cut. The videos will be broadcast only to the parties, and to the court." Journalists will no longer be able to see them, as the president said on Friday.

"We did not have a debate on this point, this decision was taken following a request from the attorney general, concerning the systematic dissemination...", says Stéphane Babonneau, Gisèle #Pelicot's lawyer.

But the president maintains his position. "I consider that these broadcasts, in the presence of the public and journalists, are shocking," insists Roger Arata.

He added that a time slot will be devoted between now and Friday to the broadcast of all the videos of the accused: there are six of them in the group of the week. There are: Joan K., Mathieu D., Fabien S., Husamettin D., Andy R., Hugues M. #Mazan

We come back to the first facts alleged against Joan K., which date back to November 2019. "Do you ask yourself if she agrees?" asks the president. "Not right away, at the time of the facts, I didn't ask myself the question once," he replies.

"I should have asked for her consent, otherwise I wouldn't be here," adds Joan K.

"At that time, I didn't even have the notion of consent. I learned that in prison," says the 27-year-old accused.

The president: "When you had relations in a normal setting, did you respect her wishes?"

Joan K.: "Yes"

The president: "So you knew what consent was?"

Joan K.: "Yes... I didn't insist."

The president: "Can a husband consent in his wife's place?"

Joan K.: "Logically not."

The president: "You can't consent by proxy, by intermediary. In the meantime, have you thought about it?"

Joan K.: "I thought about it a little bit...".

"The first time, did you have fun?" the president asked him. "Not at all, I had zero pleasure," says the accused. "It will be useful to watch the videos," says the president, visibly unconvinced.

The president describes the videos relating to the two times Joan K. went to the couple's home. It's extremely raw. Very hard to hear. He mentions many close-ups and stumbles over certain words.

The accused was not wearing a condom, despite several penetrations. Dominique Pelicot provides him with gel, and specifies: "slowly, it's cold".

"What did you do when you noticed several jolts of the lady?" asks an assessor. "What are the jolts?" retorts the accused. "Move, stir, during your acts of penetration. What's going on?" he asks. "I'm stopping," he says.

An assessor asked him: "You come from French Guiana, one of the most infected parts of France with AIDS. You didn't ask yourself any questions, even for yourself?", referring to the fact that Joan K. did not wear a condom.

"I always have condoms on me but I didn't ask him if I should wear them. But he didn't ask me if I wanted to put it on either," he says.

"You say you didn't enjoy it the first time. Why did you go back the second time?" he asks. "I was going through a difficult time, I needed to see people...", replies Joan K.

Antoine Camus, Gisèle Pelicot's second lawyer, asked him: "What is consent?" "When both people agree on the act. I'm not ready to forget it," replies Joan K.

Antoine Camus: "Do you know that consent can be taken back afterwards?"

Joan K.: "Yes... It's possible, yes."

Antoine Camus: "possible?"

Joan K.: "I think so".

The interrogation is slow. The accused's answers are terse.

"Now I am a rapist, since the law says that I am a rapist. But at the time of the facts, for me, I was not a rapist," says Joan K.

"No, I want to know if you recognize the intention! My question, I say it again: do you think that lack of culture or stupidity is an excuse that should escape a conviction?" insists Antoine Camus.

"At the time, when I went to this gentleman's house, I wasn't going there to rape a lady," Joan K. replies weakly.

Stéphane Babonneau reminds us that Joan K. is a soldier. When the police asked him: "Because of your training, is it possible that you can ignore whether a person is conscious or not?", he replied: "No, I know very well how to tell the difference".

"Don't you actually think that she was unconscious and that she didn't consent?" asks Stéphane Babonneau. "Unconscious yes, but not consenting, no," replies the accused.

The interrogation of the civil party goes round in circles, Joan K. gives short answers, he seems defensive.

The attorney general is trying to obtain clarification. She asked him if he had considered alerting someone after the fact. "No, I admit that it is not. I should have said that something was not very clear going on in this house," he admits.

"You say you were manipulated by Dominique Pelicot?" the attorney general asked him. "A minimum," replies Joan K. She asks him to elaborate. "I was not in control of myself, I felt under the influence, I did not control what I wanted," explains the accused.

"What did he do to manipulate you?" she asks him. "He reassured me a lot, he told me: 'don't worry, it's normal, we've been doing this for a long time'," the defendant said.

"There was physical violence?" insists the attorney general. "No, no, he was very welcoming," retorts Joan K.

His lawyer recalls that at the time of the facts, in 2019, Joan K. was 22 years old. "For you, collecting consent on a social network, did you think it was enough?" she asks him. "At the time yes," he says.

His lawyer recalls that at the time of the facts, Joan K. experienced three deaths in his family, and that "he had just become a father". She adds that he "then takes refuge in addictions: sex, alcohol, cannabis".

He returns to his arrest, at his workplace, in front of his military colleagues, by two judicial police officers. "I wasn't really told what was going on. Then I was taken to the police station, I was told that I was accused of aggravated rape," he said.

He claims to have been interrogated without lawyers, at least initially, and to have signed the police report without reading it, because he was "stressed".

The president passes the floor to the next accused... And forgets to involve Dominique Pelicot on the elements concerning Joan K. Roger Arata apologizes and lets him speak.

As he usually does with his co-defendants, Dominique Pelicot contradicts several of Joan K.'s assertions. "I came to pick him up in front of the school, and not at his house, I don't even know where you live," he says, blasé.

“He was fully aware of the state of my wife... Of my ex-wife,” Dominique Pelicot continues. “He undresses in the kitchen. Under no circumstances has he drunk anything, I never offer anything to anyone,” he explains.

"He warms his hands, he scrupulously respects what I asked him to do: no violence, no noise, we whisper. He followed me into the room: touching, oral, genital, penile penetration," the 71-year-old man details in one stroke.

"He shows his satisfaction on the 1st or 2nd video, I don't know anymore, proof that he knows that he is being filmed. He never worried about anything," adds Dominique Pelicot.

Dominique Pelicot confirms that he showed videos of his unconscious wife to Joan K., before he entered the room. The septuagenarian also confirmed that he had warned Joan K. that he was at risk of being arrested by the police.

He is asked why he did not allow others to get out of it. "He is one of the only ones who was calm, clean, who had respected my instructions and who is not as arrogant as he seems today," Dominique Pelicot justifies.

The hearing was suspended for a few moments.

The hearing has resumed. Hugues M. is accused of having attempted "to commit acts of sexual violence" by "rubbing his genitals against that of the victim", says the president, on the night of October 22 to 23, 2019.

"I asked you the question of whether you recognized the facts, you answered in the negative, do you maintain this position?" "I maintain my position," confirms the 39-year-old accused.

The president read Hugues M.'s statements to the police. The defendant noted that "the sleep of the civil party was a little too deep". "But he did not hesitate to try to penetrate her several times," the investigators said.

"Mr. Pelicot told him that she had drunk too much," the police said. "But, whether the unconsciousness of the civil party is due to the consumption of alcohol or medication, he did not seek the victim's consent," the police said.

He claims that when he exchanged with Dominique Pelicot on the Coco website, the latter assured him that he was looking for someone "for a swinger trio", where the woman would be asleep.

"Do you trust him?" the president asked him. "Unfortunately, I trusted too much, I trust very easily in general," says Hugues M.

He says he has already met for sex, on Coco or on other sites. Sometimes for same-day meetings.

"With particular scenarios?" asks the president. "Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Sometimes, there were scenarios with role-playing games. Either domination / submission, or disguises," says Hugues M.

He claims to have already had sex with his partner in her sleep, at her request. "What did she tell you when she woke up? Was there a normal sexual relationship?" asks the president. "Yes," replies the thirty-year-old.

He recounts the moment he arrives at the couple's home. He undressed, but failed to get an erection. "Try, try," insisted Dominique Pélicot, according to him. "I say: 'no, I won't make it'. He insists and I touch her: she doesn't wake up," he says.

It was then Dominique Pelicot who penetrated her "instantly", says Hugues M. "And there, I don't see any reaction. I tell myself that this is not normal," continues the accused.

"So I ask him the question, I'm surprised: 'hey, she seems to be sleeping well'. He replied: 'yes, she had too much to drink tonight'. So I'm no longer interested in it, there's no sharing, no exchange. He tells me: 'no, stay a little longer'. And I left," says Hugues M.

The accused specifies that the video about him lasts only 40 seconds. "Detach yourself from the video, we stay on the feeling of the moment," the president asks him.

Hugues M. became aware of the arrest of Dominique Pelicot by the newspapers. "I'll make the connection: I've only been to Mazan once, I'm learning the magnitude of things. From there comes the feeling of guilt, of shame," he explains.

"I noticed it in time, because I didn't know beforehand and, in the end, I made the right decision," says the thirty-year-old, who thinks at the time that he could be heard "as a witness or other".

The president: "You maintain that you contest this attempted rape?"

Hugues M.: "Yes".

An assessor asked him why he had not had an erection. "The atmosphere was usually warmer, more welcoming. Here, it was very direct: you cross the threshold of the door, you cross the house. It was quite directive, it was not an exchange relationship," he explains.

"So it's the atmosphere that makes the absence of an erection? Isn't it the fact that this lady was sleeping, with her mouth open?" the assessor continues. "In my opinion, when I arrive, it's more the fact that it's very direct... There was no exchange," replies Hugues M.

"The psychologist said that you discovered libertinism at 23, you're a bit of an old hand... Is there always consent from the start? Where do you think the lady agreed?" asks another assessor. "I can't," he admits.

"We're not going to show the videos but I have a photo of you where you try to penetrate Mrs. Pelicot lying down, mouth open, head back. And you, do you explain that at this stage, you are behaving acceptable?" asks Stéphane Babonneau.

"In what I've seen since the beginning (of this trial), we are all supposed to be aware that she was drugged. When I am in front of the police, they tell me: 'you did that'. I am never aware of chemical or other submission," says Hugues M.

The thirty-year-old reiterates that he arrived at the home of the Pelicot couple "in a libertinistic approach" and simply acknowledges "having been hasty". "The scene where I stay in the room must last 3, 4 minutes in total," he adds.

"Indeed, now we see the photos, the videos, she was under chemical submission, we can only say to ourselves: 'it goes without saying'. But before that, when I go, I don't know," insists Hugues M.

Stéphane Babonneau: "In trying to penetrate Mrs. Pelicot, the conclusion of 5 years of reflection is that you are innocent of attempted rape?"

Hugues M.: "I never intended to rape, when I notice that she doesn't wake up, I decide to leave".

Stéphane Babonneau: "So you're innocent?"

Hugues M.: "It's not up to me to decide...".

Stéphane Babonneau: "You say: 'I believed'. But you could also say, 'I should have known.'"Hugues M. says that he sometimes penetrated his partner by surprise, in her sleep, because she had asked him to do so. “The scenario you are describing there is a surprise rape,” said Antoine Camus, Gisèle Pelicot’s other lawyer. “You sinned out of candour, out of anguish, we made you the instrument of an attempted rape, is that it? Were you used?”, Antoine Camus asks him. “Yes,” replies the accused. “When it gets to your brain, you don’t say to yourself: ‘I’m going to go see the police’?”, continues the lawyer. “I thought about this question, I said it during my psychological follow-ups. I was told that there was no assistance to anyone in danger,” relates Hugues M.

"What do you think of the statements of your ex-partner who says that you lied to her eyes for five years?" asks Antoine Camus.

"If we enter into this debate, it may be long... From the moment I expressed my word, it was necessarily bad, so I kept silent," he says.

His ex-girlfriend told investigators that she woke up with a start one night when Hugues M. had tried to put his fingers in her vagina. The interested party assured that she was dreaming. Which he repeats today.

The attorney general: "You say: 'I'm ashamed to have done that'. But you consider that you have not committed an offence. It's a bit contradictory, isn't it?"

Hugues M.: "Yes and no: I'm ashamed of the proposal, I should have made more sure of the consent."

Dominique Pelicot is invited to react. "He is the first (accused) who says that there were no exchanges by phone, no interview, nothing, we know nothing. He has to explain to me how I could have guided him to the front of my house," says the septuagenarian.

"He was the one who contacted me, he was not surprised by anything. Indeed, in the room, there were some difficulties, I don't know if it's related to the condom or not. He says that he did not realize it even though he knew about it from the start," he said.

Béatrice Zavarro, Dominique Pelicot's lawyer, asked Hugues M. if he made "the difference between falling asleep and unconscious". "I would say yes," the man replies.

"I ask this question because when the judge questions you, she draws your attention to the unconscious state of Mrs. Pelicot and you answer: 'this state is not surprising, that's what I was told'. You acquiesce in the unconsciousness," observes Béatrice Zavarro.

The lawyer observes that Hugues M. often uses the "we" to answer, siding with other defendants. "Isn't your conviction based on the conviction of others? There are 35 of you on the same position," she said (35 defendants did not admit to the facts).

"You are all together, everyone hears the explanations of the others, am I dealing with a man who is convinced by the conviction of the 35 others?" she asks. The accused assures that he has not changed his position since the beginning.

A defense lawyer questions Dominique Pelicot about the position in which his partner appears in the images. "I hope you're joking," he says, mockingly.

The president reframes him. "I have observed for some time that you are adopting a tone that is becoming unacceptable, so I advise you to have a minimum of decency and not to take anyone to task," Roger Arata told him. "Of course Mr. President," he replies.

The hearing ends. It will resume tomorrow, at 9 a.m., with the questioning of two defendants. Thank you for following this LT for @franceinfo

https://www.francetvinfo.fr/faits-divers/affaire-des-viols-de-mazan/proces-des-viols-de-mazan-la-diffusion-des-videos-ne-sera-pas-systematique-decide-l-avocat-general_6791884.html